Curse

Shriketalon · Mar 03, 2010, 05:31 AM // 05:31

With all the recent talk over speedclears, solo and duo farming, etc, etc, etc, I begin to wonder if we are approaching this only one way. Why don't we ever try to find ways for the monsters to defeat gimmicks?

No, no, I'm not talking about those stupid skeletons. Those were crude and reactionary.

What I mean is, there is a distinct reason the gimmicks never work in PvP. Humans can react to them, but they also frequently bring the tools to do so. Most monsters, by comparison...are quite lacking. SC methods work because the enemies simply can't handle the combination, even though most of them are very basic gimmicks or enchantment frameworks. These should prove far more problematic in the face of decent interruption, disruption, removal, and other problems that PvP would use to counter such gameplay.

Let me give you an example.

If we were against those gosh darn varmits speedclearin' the stone forest, we could go over builds, banter about skills, try to make revisions, test them for months, then have another SC build up within two days of the update...or we could realize that the reason the speedclear works is because wardens aren't very good. Let's bring out the opposition.

Warden of Forests: None Shall Pass, Counter Blow, Devastating Hammer, Healing Signet.
Warden of Winds: Barbed Trap, Brambles, Lacerate, Splinter Shot, Snare, Troll Unguent.
Warden of the Spirit: Cry of Frustration, Energy Surge, Shatter Enchantment, Shatter Hex.
Warden of Earth: Ash Blast, Aura of Restoration, Churning Earth, Glyph of Lesser Energy, Shockwave, Stoning.
Warden of Seasons: Ancestor's Rage, Consume Soul, Recuperation, Spirit Light, Splinter Weapon, Weapon of Warding, Wielder's Boon.

....This team is a disaster.

The warrior has no stance or defense and half his brain is missing. The ranger has no interruption, no stance, no preparation, and only one pathetic bow attack. The mesmer has only half a skillbar and terrible recharges. The elementalist is completely dependent upon the warrior to inflict weakness, thus allowing stoning to trigger ash blast. The ritualist is the only decent thing in the entire group, but support alone won't let them function.

It's no wonder speedclears work. The opposition is a complete failure.

Let us, for a moment, pretend that this team was competent. The warrior had Berserker Stance to allow faster buildup toward DH, aided his allies with Watch Yourself, and followed up Devastating Hammer with Heavy Blow and Fierce Blow. The Ranger used Hunter's Shot to trigger Lacerate and spread interruption with Choking Gas. The Mesmer punished opponents with Power Spike and Signet of Disruption while packing Lyssa's Balance and Overload for backup. The elementalist decided that sticking with earth was more important than gaining Enervating Charge, so it packed in Dragon's Stomp for AoE and Ashblast combo and Obsidian Flame for a bit of pain. The ritualist was mostly fine, so it added Ghostly Haste just for kicks.

Now we have a decent opponent. It isn't anything amazing, but it contains enough enchantment removal and interruption (some of which goes through spell immunity), as well as better combinations and individual ability. And it does so while preserving the themes of the group AND using only core and factions skills.

Will it defeat everything that threatens its domain with resounding success? No. That's not its purpose. What is SHOULD do (and many people can probably suggest better skill additions that I for this) is slow down and disrupt the gimmicks, and throw a few wrenches in the gears by defeating the simplest strategies. And it doesn't do so by making balanced gameplay worse. An eight-man party should shrug off a little disruption easily, and have no problem pining down the healer while striking the elementalist, etc.

Most of the problem skills involve a perfect defense combined with a decent offense. There are two ways of getting around a great defense; jack up the offense to a ridiculous extent (heavyhanded, counterproductive for everything else, and doesn't usually work), or provide disruption to tear it into little pieces. Why not make monsters better at the latter?

And I'm not talking about going over every creature in the game. The list of monsters that could receive such a treatment to create a decent impact is actually rather short.

In Prophecies, charr, centaurs, stone summit, white mantle, and mursaat.
In Factions, Am Fah, Jade Brotherhood, warden, naga or outcasts.
In Nightfall, Kournan troops, harpies, undead, bugs.
In EotN, a brief look at dungeons.
The Shadow Army. Some Underworld critters.

And that is actually it. This would make adjust the most common foes across the continents, thus providing each region with something that is a half decent challenge. Not as big a problem as one might think. And in the process, mobs get tougher, PvE gets more challenging, and the game gets more involved. Which is good, no?

TL;DR-> A lot of the SC and solo stuff that is complained about is simply an issue because the monsters can't deal with it. Give the most common monsters means of doing so, and we're quite a few steps closer to solving the problem AND making PvE more engaging at the same time.

Arduin · Mar 03, 2010, 05:38 AM // 05:38

Bingo. Your explanation gives the reason why GW is prone to speedclearing and why everything is so 'easy' in PvE. Static mobs, all information readily available on the wiki, the fact the game is nearly 5 years old has lead to this. The same reason why Hard Mode isn't hard per se, just more annoying.

So yes, instead of nerfing OP skill after OP skill, Anet could revamp PvE for a bit. They are able to build good bars: the Stone Summit and Char in EotN all got decent builds, individually and teamwise. The question is, will they do it?

The-Bigz · Mar 03, 2010, 05:41 AM // 05:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arduin

Bingo. Your explanation gives the reason why GW is prone to speedclearing and why everything is so 'easy' in PvE. Static mobs, all information readily available on the wiki, the fact the game is nearly 5 years old had lead to this. The same reason why Hard Mode isn't hard per se, just more annoying.

So yes, instead of nerfing OP skill after OP skill, Anet could revamp PvE for a bit. They are able to build got bars: the Stone Summit and Char in EotN all got decent builds, individually and teamwise. The question is, will they do it?

Buffing really shitty PvE to begin with to make it harder to complete x mission to gain x item that is actually a shit reward and time consuming anyways = fail.

Would see more of an exodus of players then an influx of free thinkers, although I do agree with you on this.

ShadowsRequiem · Mar 03, 2010, 05:42 AM // 05:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arduin

Bingo. Your explanation gives the reason why GW is prone to speedclearing and why everything is so 'easy' in PvE. Static mobs, all information readily available on the wiki, the fact the game is nearly 5 years old has lead to this. The same reason why Hard Mode isn't hard per se, just more annoying.

So yes, instead of nerfing OP skill after OP skill, Anet could revamp PvE for a bit. They are able to build good bars: the Stone Summit and Char in EotN all got decent builds, individually and teamwise. The question is, will they do it?

As you can all guess, No.

In addition to this you could always spawn some random mobs. Like what d2 lod used to do, have mobs from different acts appear in the fifth. Of course this would never happen however.

This brings up the phase Too little, too late.

UnChosen · Mar 03, 2010, 05:43 AM // 05:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by The-Bigz

Buffing really shitty PvE to begin with to make it harder to complete x mission to gain x item that is actually a shit reward and time consuming anyways = fail.

Would see more of an exodus of players then an influx of free thinkers, although I do agree with you on this.

Which is why they need to INCREASE THE DROP/REWARD as well.

Bryant Again · Mar 03, 2010, 05:43 AM // 05:43

People keep saying over and over again that "SF is the biggest problem in PvE!", but that's not largely because the skill was good, but largely because the monsters would throw every single thing they had at anyone with it on. Like you said, adjust monsters accordingly and PvE would be on a far better road than what we have now. Plus it would feel more like the devs were throwing challenges at us as opposed to adjusting our wheels.

But none of that is going to happen (tragically) because it's far easier to adjust one skillbar (the farmer) than several (the farmed). If ANet knew to do this at the start than PvE would be a much more rewarding experience.

The-Bigz · Mar 03, 2010, 05:47 AM // 05:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by UnChosen

Which is why they need to INCREASE THE DROP/REWARD as well.

I have said the same thing in multiple other threads that are 'PvE r bad nao QQ'. When will they listen to this idea to reward slow and rewarding gameplay rather then rush for the bullshit ideas? Who knows.

madriel222 · Mar 03, 2010, 06:16 AM // 06:16

Great as this sounds in theory, I just know we'd only end up getting more ridiculous Monster Only skills if Anet actually wanted to rebalance the mobs. It's that kind of thinking, though, that I hope Anet looks for in its staff for future games...

ElnoreVarda · Mar 03, 2010, 06:31 AM // 06:31

Ive been whining about this for quite some time, but perhaps not so loud around here.

One reason no one talks about it, is because it will probably never happen. We are low on updates already, and asking for something like this is like asking for a bunch of new dungeons.

Apart from buffing monster skill bars, better monster AI would be nice. Monsters that can prioritize, perhaps spike, fall back, chain skills and actually shut people down instead of just mashing their skills. Monsters with combo based skill bars would be fun too; interrupting Ether renewal on a foe that uses the E/mo heal bar would be fun and actually give shutdown a - if ever so slight - purpose.

HBlix · Mar 03, 2010, 06:36 AM // 06:36

Giving every group of monsters interrupts and enchantment removal just makes it annoying to play through normally.

Winterclaw · Mar 03, 2010, 07:25 AM // 07:25

My only objection is some of the skills you suggested aren't from factions, that'd have to be cleared up but other than that I like the idea.

Gennadios · Mar 03, 2010, 07:48 AM // 07:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arduin

The question is, will they do it?

Doubtful. Live team is comprised of 4 programmers. With all the different moster types and areas in the game... that's alot of skill bars/placement/party compositions to overhaul.

zwei2stein · Mar 03, 2010, 08:01 AM // 08:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shriketalon

It's no wonder speedclears work. The opposition is a complete failure.

TL;DR-> A lot of the SC and solo stuff that is complained about is simply an issue because the monsters can't deal with it. Give the most common monsters means of doing so, and we're quite a few steps closer to solving the problem AND making PvE more engaging at the same time.

I think you got it a bit wrong:

The opposition is static. That is the reason why it works. You changes might give best teambuild a bit trouble, but it is going to still work just fine once someone gets to updating player builds.

Player builds can be updated in minutes if you know what to do, monster builds are going to be static inbetween updates.

Codex arena taught us that it takes about three hours to crystalize new "best" build.

What you need is randomization, you need monsters builds and even monster types and group composition a bit randomized so that every time you enter, there is good chance that mobs will luck out having skill that destroys gimmick (not to mention that it would refresh normal gameplay as well.).

Age · Mar 03, 2010, 08:07 AM // 08:07

It is because it if for our Entertainment that we get to go out and kill any mobs we want.I don't support this

Zebideedee · Mar 03, 2010, 08:08 AM // 08:08

Warden of Seasons used to annoy me until I learned you could call targets to H/H (except Devona)

upier · Mar 03, 2010, 08:22 AM // 08:22

Ahh, time for a word of the day lesson:
http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/m...tml?t=10304600

Improvavel · Mar 03, 2010, 08:23 AM // 08:23

It is simple:

PvE MoBs are there to die and drop loot.

What happened in prophecies?

MOBs died and dropped loot.

The game was good.

"But Anet the game is too easy! Every idio and is sister can do everything in the game and have every item! This can't be! Only a few can be elite and have shinny".

Gigantic MOBs, PvE-only skills, Loot Scalling, MOB only-skills, stupid bosses, Environmental effects, and 4 and so years later, here we are discussing how to make mobs more challenging.

GET OVER IT!

AI SUCKS! IN THIS GAME! IN ALL GAMES! (except those that have a finite number of set plays, regardless how many plays actually are)

People want to be elite they need to go play PvP.

Humans are idiots, jerks, fantastic, crap, lovable, hatable, creative, unpredictable, fun, boring, etc. Mobs are always the same.

PvE is mind nubbing after so many years and always be.

Still games like these are fun because of "SHINNIES". Humans love "SHINNIES".

So stop removing the shinnies and pretend only a few can finish PvE.

Everyone that isn't dead and give a RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GO can finish PvE.

Test Me · Mar 03, 2010, 08:26 AM // 08:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shriketalon

TL;DR-> A lot of the SC and solo stuff that is complained about is simply an issue because the monsters can't deal with it. Give the most common monsters means of doing so, and we're quite a few steps closer to solving the problem AND making PvE more engaging at the same time.

Excuse me but... what's wrong with speed clears? Everybody did everything there was to do in PvE at least 10 times over by now. It's a dead game and all that's left is repetition.

Since you're talking about wardens and such I assume you're referring to DTSC. Well let me tell you the obvious: DTSC is done hundreds of times by players *not* because they believe "PvE is engaging and fun" (ridiculous); it's done because they want to obtain 10 mil kurz faction title points.

Do you understand that number? 10 mil? And do you understand why people going for that title don't give a sh*t about how engaging PvE is but rather just get the title done the least painful way? And let's not discuss if it's good or bad to set yourself the goal to get this title or not, that's a decision every player can make on their own.

And don't tell me having to repeat the same area vanquish "normal/balanced" way hundreds of times *is fun*. Actually quite the opposite, DTSC is some way to get some fun out of that.

The bigger team of 8 players splits in 4 pairs each achieving a different goal working together but separate. WTH *that* is fun. Which other occasion in GW do you get a team to split into sub teams to achieve different goals?

And why would people be forced to always play sticking together, all eight of them all the time and having a single monk fail or quit ruining your entire team???

Out of all possibilities I dislike the most the so called "balanced way". Which should be probably called "random fail way". If that were my only option I'd probably hero/hench everything as that would be more efficient than random way. I like to be efficient and I like to play with people that know what they do and do their piece well. What's your issue with that?

I just don't get the problems some people have with how others play the game, when it obviously doesn't affect them at all.

Master Ketsu · Mar 03, 2010, 08:55 AM // 08:55

I find the general idea of this to be something I have agreed with for a long time. Monster bars in general aren't very good, which is a shame because GW has one of the most deep and complex combat systems not just in MMORPG's but when it comes to gaming in general. Anet has the opportunity to show us some really crazy stuff with all the different areas, and what do they do? They give each monster a build that isn't even complete comprised of some random skills for their profession with the occasional basic combo. Any attempt at build synergy is either half assed or too simplistic to be noticeable. IMO this is the real reason why PvE is easy.

If you were to try any of those PvE farming builds in PvP any team worth their salt would laugh at you and promptly proceed to steamroll. This game would be a lot less predictable if areas had more varied builds such as if you were in a dungeon and all of the sudden a group of 8 trolls with pets came storming at you with the IWAY build. Or in another dungeon spiders would jump down from the ceiling and try to actually ranger spike you. PvE would actually be somewhat challenging.

So.

Much.

Wasted.

Potential.

>>sadfrog.jpg

Test Me · Mar 03, 2010, 10:26 AM // 10:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Master Ketsu

PvE would actually be somewhat challenging.

I'm pretty sure basic arithmetics like number addition was challenging in your first grade of primary school. Was it still challenging 5 years after? Did you go crying to your math teacher to make number addition more challenging?

No one plays this game 5 years after release because they want to enjoy facing stupid AI monsters that "challenge" players. In 2 days a new meta to counter whatever build monsters run will show up on PvX, in 4 days everybody will run those builds and to get a group players will be required to run them and monsters will die and die and die... and drop and drop and drop.

Because that's why they are there. Their skill bar doesn't evolve, they don't go like: "oh look this player brought heavy enchants, I'd better map out to an outpost change my skill bar to enchants removal and come back to face him". That would be something. So no, they run the same build for years while you as a player can just go to an outpost and choose any 8 skills out of +1200.